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	<title>Comments on: Before you buy &#8211; call 888-567-8688</title>
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	<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/</link>
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		<title>By: twist</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1993</link>
		<dc:creator>twist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 04:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1993</guid>
		<description>John-

I can&#039;t take credit where credit is due. The above link (as well as a bunch of others) come from the hardworking and usually anonymous L- whose assistance is always much appreciated!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John-</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t take credit where credit is due. The above link (as well as a bunch of others) come from the hardworking and usually anonymous L- whose assistance is always much appreciated!</p>
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		<title>By: Old Mike</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1992</link>
		<dc:creator>Old Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 03:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1992</guid>
		<description>John, I await your morrows post with gin soaked breath, the wifey being out of town you see. Wait, let me guess, the quasi-public F&amp; F, with their new found congressional chair-persons, are about to look like the Italian army. As the last great American leader warned us, they believe: &quot;if if moves, tax it, if it still moves, regulate it, when it stops, subsidize it.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I await your morrows post with gin soaked breath, the wifey being out of town you see. Wait, let me guess, the quasi-public F&amp; F, with their new found congressional chair-persons, are about to look like the Italian army. As the last great American leader warned us, they believe: &#8220;if if moves, tax it, if it still moves, regulate it, when it stops, subsidize it.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: aaaaudio</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1991</link>
		<dc:creator>aaaaudio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 03:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1991</guid>
		<description>www.optoutprescreen.com
I opted out for five years and my junk mail and credit score have both benefited.
Jason -the mortgage guy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.optoutprescreen.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.optoutprescreen.com</a><br />
I opted out for five years and my junk mail and credit score have both benefited.<br />
Jason -the mortgage guy</p>
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		<title>By: John M.</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1990</link>
		<dc:creator>John M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 02:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1990</guid>
		<description>Old Mike -

About that sub-prime / Alt-A / Jumbo rabbit.  Stay tuned.  OFHEO just raised the door in the lock, and a lot of that stuff will flow right back to F&amp;F, at least until 01Jan2008.  Check out tomorrow&#039;s post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Old Mike -</p>
<p>About that sub-prime / Alt-A / Jumbo rabbit.  Stay tuned.  OFHEO just raised the door in the lock, and a lot of that stuff will flow right back to F&#038;F, at least until 01Jan2008.  Check out tomorrow&#8217;s post.</p>
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		<title>By: Old Mike</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1989</link>
		<dc:creator>Old Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 01:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1989</guid>
		<description>Helena, great posts and I personally fully agree with you about a local presence and a real live  local person to do business with. In the Midwest I used small to medium size independant banks or credit unions whenever possible and even if it cost a little bit more, 10 basis points isn&#039;t much to sleep better, which I don&#039;t do with &quot;gottcha.com&quot; or 1-800-bye-cash. Eventually the bank can make it back for you with better CD rates anyway. And the big boys, as John will tell you, have all been chasing the sub-prime rabbit like over- amped afgan hounds(pretty but not the brightest bred). Smaller, locals actually appreciate good credit borrowers. Occasionally the big boys will have a good person, but then they make them a vice-president/branch manager and move them 100 miles away. I don&#039;t know, having never used one,  but I suspect local, stand alone mortgage brokers  who have been in business for a long time are similar to smaller local bankers.  Don&#039;t worry about the realtor complaints, long term your strong ethics pays dividends and it at least keeps you out of court.  Finally, I suspect &quot;affiliate referrals&quot; are a much bigger problem than any form of predatory &quot;dumping&quot;, the market is way to large and diverse for the latter strategy to ever work (some econmists say it never works if entry is reasonably easy). So I guess you will support the new &quot;Affiliate Lender Disclosure and Regulation Act&quot; I&#039;m working on. I&#039;ll have to hire John to start my car now. Good luck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helena, great posts and I personally fully agree with you about a local presence and a real live  local person to do business with. In the Midwest I used small to medium size independant banks or credit unions whenever possible and even if it cost a little bit more, 10 basis points isn&#8217;t much to sleep better, which I don&#8217;t do with &#8220;gottcha.com&#8221; or 1-800-bye-cash. Eventually the bank can make it back for you with better CD rates anyway. And the big boys, as John will tell you, have all been chasing the sub-prime rabbit like over- amped afgan hounds(pretty but not the brightest bred). Smaller, locals actually appreciate good credit borrowers. Occasionally the big boys will have a good person, but then they make them a vice-president/branch manager and move them 100 miles away. I don&#8217;t know, having never used one,  but I suspect local, stand alone mortgage brokers  who have been in business for a long time are similar to smaller local bankers.  Don&#8217;t worry about the realtor complaints, long term your strong ethics pays dividends and it at least keeps you out of court.  Finally, I suspect &#8220;affiliate referrals&#8221; are a much bigger problem than any form of predatory &#8220;dumping&#8221;, the market is way to large and diverse for the latter strategy to ever work (some econmists say it never works if entry is reasonably easy). So I guess you will support the new &#8220;Affiliate Lender Disclosure and Regulation Act&#8221; I&#8217;m working on. I&#8217;ll have to hire John to start my car now. Good luck.</p>
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		<title>By: helena</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1988</link>
		<dc:creator>helena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1988</guid>
		<description>Anecdotal story.  On Monday, an originator I work with told me that he gotten a call from a Realtor/Selling Agent castigating him for giving advice to our borrower.  The borrower is purchasing a new build condominium contingent upon selling his current home.  The borrower received an offer on his current home for an amount less than the asking price.  The borrower, prudent man, felt strongly that after the sale of his current home and purchase of the condominium, he wanted his credit card debt paid down and no less than $10,000 in the bank.  Otherwise, he would not follow through on the purchase of the condo. The originator suggested to the borrower that he contact the Selling Agent to see if the builder would renegotiate the price of the condominium.   The Selling Agent, a frick&#039;n Buyer-Broker who ostensibly represents the buyer’s interests, was up in arms and told the originator that in this market new builds were not experiencing any price declines. [Yeah, right.] Push comes to shove, the Listing Agent affiliated with the Builder agreed to reduce her commission.  The records will show no price reductions as the Listing Agent/Builder still has an additional 5 units to sell.

Would this borrower have received this advice had the mortgage been offered through an affiliate of the Realtor’s office?  Somehow I doubt it. (Will this Selling Agent and Builder blackball us? Possibly?  Funny, they always seek us out when they need us to rescue a deal originated elsewhere.  The longer-term problem is that these referral sources will steer solid buyers to their affiliates and send us the marginal borrowers that are more labor-intensive and costlier to place. The borrower feels screwed.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anecdotal story.  On Monday, an originator I work with told me that he gotten a call from a Realtor/Selling Agent castigating him for giving advice to our borrower.  The borrower is purchasing a new build condominium contingent upon selling his current home.  The borrower received an offer on his current home for an amount less than the asking price.  The borrower, prudent man, felt strongly that after the sale of his current home and purchase of the condominium, he wanted his credit card debt paid down and no less than $10,000 in the bank.  Otherwise, he would not follow through on the purchase of the condo. The originator suggested to the borrower that he contact the Selling Agent to see if the builder would renegotiate the price of the condominium.   The Selling Agent, a frick&#8217;n Buyer-Broker who ostensibly represents the buyer’s interests, was up in arms and told the originator that in this market new builds were not experiencing any price declines. [Yeah, right.] Push comes to shove, the Listing Agent affiliated with the Builder agreed to reduce her commission.  The records will show no price reductions as the Listing Agent/Builder still has an additional 5 units to sell.</p>
<p>Would this borrower have received this advice had the mortgage been offered through an affiliate of the Realtor’s office?  Somehow I doubt it. (Will this Selling Agent and Builder blackball us? Possibly?  Funny, they always seek us out when they need us to rescue a deal originated elsewhere.  The longer-term problem is that these referral sources will steer solid buyers to their affiliates and send us the marginal borrowers that are more labor-intensive and costlier to place. The borrower feels screwed.)</p>
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		<title>By: helena</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1987</link>
		<dc:creator>helena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Nov 2006 00:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1987</guid>
		<description>Would this be fair? When you swipe your insurance card at the pharmacy, you insurance provider immediately sells your name to alternative providers of prescriptions drugs.  The alternative vendor may be the pharmacist across the street, it may be an out-of-state vendor, it may be a consolidator operating out of a warehouse in Bangalore or it may be the big nemesis WalMart.  How do we know where your client’s name ends up?

The alternative vendor who doesn’t have to carry the cost of bricks and mortar or the cost of the salaries in that market (Boston or Chattanooga) or the cost of conducting business in that market (taxes and state regulations) can justifiably offer the product at a lower cost.  Or, they could be dumping product to acquire market share by driving out smaller competitors.  Or, they could underbid the cost by selling an inferior product.  In the case of a prescription drug, it may not be discernable to the consumer until their health starts to fail.  In the case of a purchaser of a home, it may not be apparent until they are at the closing table and they’re confronted with a bait and switch.

Play this game with any other provider of professional services that requires some but not extensive face-to-face contact…your accountant, your lawyer, your financial planner, event aspects of your medical care.

Mortgages are now being sold as a commodity.  And yes, Old Mike spells out the risks of affiliated business arrangements accurately.

I do support a borrower being fully informed of his options, I do support competitive forces, I do support reducing costs but I’m not sure that this is what is happening here.  The fact of the matter is that borrower will use an internet-based lender for a difference of 1/8th on the rate.  They simply don’t value the independent advice or the knowledge of the local marketplace. Your local providers of mortgage services, like your independent bookstore, your music store, your video rental store, your hardware store, may soon no longer be found on Main Street, USA.  It’s been a great ride.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would this be fair? When you swipe your insurance card at the pharmacy, you insurance provider immediately sells your name to alternative providers of prescriptions drugs.  The alternative vendor may be the pharmacist across the street, it may be an out-of-state vendor, it may be a consolidator operating out of a warehouse in Bangalore or it may be the big nemesis WalMart.  How do we know where your client’s name ends up?</p>
<p>The alternative vendor who doesn’t have to carry the cost of bricks and mortar or the cost of the salaries in that market (Boston or Chattanooga) or the cost of conducting business in that market (taxes and state regulations) can justifiably offer the product at a lower cost.  Or, they could be dumping product to acquire market share by driving out smaller competitors.  Or, they could underbid the cost by selling an inferior product.  In the case of a prescription drug, it may not be discernable to the consumer until their health starts to fail.  In the case of a purchaser of a home, it may not be apparent until they are at the closing table and they’re confronted with a bait and switch.</p>
<p>Play this game with any other provider of professional services that requires some but not extensive face-to-face contact…your accountant, your lawyer, your financial planner, event aspects of your medical care.</p>
<p>Mortgages are now being sold as a commodity.  And yes, Old Mike spells out the risks of affiliated business arrangements accurately.</p>
<p>I do support a borrower being fully informed of his options, I do support competitive forces, I do support reducing costs but I’m not sure that this is what is happening here.  The fact of the matter is that borrower will use an internet-based lender for a difference of 1/8th on the rate.  They simply don’t value the independent advice or the knowledge of the local marketplace. Your local providers of mortgage services, like your independent bookstore, your music store, your video rental store, your hardware store, may soon no longer be found on Main Street, USA.  It’s been a great ride.</p>
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		<title>By: John M.</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1986</link>
		<dc:creator>John M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:50:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1986</guid>
		<description>Old Mike -

It really is a jungle out there.  Twist&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://usmarket.seekingalpha.com/article/20600&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;sidebar find&lt;/a&gt; [1] from earlier today includes this telling quote (my &lt;strong&gt;emphasis&lt;/strong&gt;).
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;&quot;Appraisers, Real Estate agents, Mortage Brokers, Lenders, Title Insurers. All in bed together. And conspiring together to make a sale and inflate the price. If you work in the industry you know exactly what I am talking about. Or if you are savvy and recently purchased a home you may have noticed it as well. There are obscene amounts of &lt;strong&gt;obscure fees&lt;/strong&gt; involved in each of these transactions, from title insurance to points on a mortgage. And even more egregious is the &lt;strong&gt;bogus appraisals&lt;/strong&gt; that are determined by the pockets of Real Estate agents and mortgage brokers.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;They have been fleecing the average American of significant sums of money, in numerous ways, yet no one mentions them.&lt;/strong&gt; The financial press loves to harp about the housing bubble, and as a result have helped spark this cool down. But they have missed their call to duty, which is to expose such behavior.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
That&#039;s pretty heavy stuff.  Be careful out there, guys!

-----------------------------------

[1]: &lt;a href=&quot;http://usmarket.seekingalpha.com/article/20600&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;The Real Reason to Avoid Homebuilders&quot;&lt;/a&gt;, by Michael Church, &lt;em&gt;SeekingAlpha&lt;/em&gt;, November 15, 2006.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Old Mike -</p>
<p>It really is a jungle out there.  Twist&#8217;s <a href="http://usmarket.seekingalpha.com/article/20600" rel="nofollow">sidebar find</a> [1] from earlier today includes this telling quote (my <strong>emphasis</strong>).</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Appraisers, Real Estate agents, Mortage Brokers, Lenders, Title Insurers. All in bed together. And conspiring together to make a sale and inflate the price. If you work in the industry you know exactly what I am talking about. Or if you are savvy and recently purchased a home you may have noticed it as well. There are obscene amounts of <strong>obscure fees</strong> involved in each of these transactions, from title insurance to points on a mortgage. And even more egregious is the <strong>bogus appraisals</strong> that are determined by the pockets of Real Estate agents and mortgage brokers.</p>
<p><strong>They have been fleecing the average American of significant sums of money, in numerous ways, yet no one mentions them.</strong> The financial press loves to harp about the housing bubble, and as a result have helped spark this cool down. But they have missed their call to duty, which is to expose such behavior.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s pretty heavy stuff.  Be careful out there, guys!</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>[1]: <a href="http://usmarket.seekingalpha.com/article/20600" rel="nofollow">&#8220;The Real Reason to Avoid Homebuilders&#8221;</a>, by Michael Church, <em>SeekingAlpha</em>, November 15, 2006.</p>
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		<title>By: John M.</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1985</link>
		<dc:creator>John M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 17:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1985</guid>
		<description>Old Mike -

Thanks for sharing that.  I&#039;ve added text to the last paragraph to emphasize the need for obtaining independent advice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Old Mike -</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing that.  I&#8217;ve added text to the last paragraph to emphasize the need for obtaining independent advice.</p>
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		<title>By: Old Mike</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1984</link>
		<dc:creator>Old Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 16:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1984</guid>
		<description>Is it accurate that under current practice and law the consumer can opt out of recieving the alternative information or having their personal data shared? If so then its just a disclosure issue, right? While I love my privacy and hate junk mail and spam, I question efforts by realtor groups to assure that the entire process is under their control and direction. Lets see they want to advise the parties(sometimes both buyer and seller) and &quot;recommend&quot; the inspectors, appraisers, &quot;prefered lenders&quot;, title companies and home warranty policies?. Do we also need undercoating from them? It would be interesting to see how often mortgage fraud schemes involved any advisor outside the &quot;recommened&quot; circle.  Can realtor&#039;s have financial interests in affiliate mortgage brokers? Are they prohibited from recommending their own affiliate? How is that affiliate relationship disclosed to consumers? Do the agents also advise consumers on all the forms used primarily to insulate the broker and agents from liability? Check out &quot;your&quot; local realtor&#039;s reaction when you tell them you want the family lawyer involved. I have found its a great test. In most states where I have purchased or sold real estate legal representation of the client is welcomed by every competent realtor. The reaction of agents at least 4 times in the Phoenix area has been just the opposite, with one agent saying that you &quot;just cannot do a deal here&quot; if you involve a lawyer.  The first time this happened I was astonished.  When it happened repeatedly I became concerned.  The AAR form contract on the &quot;Buyers Attachment&quot; states in bold letters: &quot;Remember, you are urged to consult with an attorney, inspectors, and experts of your choice in any area of interest or concern in the transaction.&quot;  Make it your choice, not the realtors. I prefer my consumer advocates a bit less worried about &quot;deals jepardized&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it accurate that under current practice and law the consumer can opt out of recieving the alternative information or having their personal data shared? If so then its just a disclosure issue, right? While I love my privacy and hate junk mail and spam, I question efforts by realtor groups to assure that the entire process is under their control and direction. Lets see they want to advise the parties(sometimes both buyer and seller) and &#8220;recommend&#8221; the inspectors, appraisers, &#8220;prefered lenders&#8221;, title companies and home warranty policies?. Do we also need undercoating from them? It would be interesting to see how often mortgage fraud schemes involved any advisor outside the &#8220;recommened&#8221; circle.  Can realtor&#8217;s have financial interests in affiliate mortgage brokers? Are they prohibited from recommending their own affiliate? How is that affiliate relationship disclosed to consumers? Do the agents also advise consumers on all the forms used primarily to insulate the broker and agents from liability? Check out &#8220;your&#8221; local realtor&#8217;s reaction when you tell them you want the family lawyer involved. I have found its a great test. In most states where I have purchased or sold real estate legal representation of the client is welcomed by every competent realtor. The reaction of agents at least 4 times in the Phoenix area has been just the opposite, with one agent saying that you &#8220;just cannot do a deal here&#8221; if you involve a lawyer.  The first time this happened I was astonished.  When it happened repeatedly I became concerned.  The AAR form contract on the &#8220;Buyers Attachment&#8221; states in bold letters: &#8220;Remember, you are urged to consult with an attorney, inspectors, and experts of your choice in any area of interest or concern in the transaction.&#8221;  Make it your choice, not the realtors. I prefer my consumer advocates a bit less worried about &#8220;deals jepardized&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: twist</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1983</link>
		<dc:creator>twist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 15:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1983</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know how altruistic the motives of the &quot;real estate professionals&quot; may be in this case- but I hope they are successful in a battle against a practice that intrudes on the privacy of consumers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know how altruistic the motives of the &#8220;real estate professionals&#8221; may be in this case- but I hope they are successful in a battle against a practice that intrudes on the privacy of consumers.</p>
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		<title>By: chuck7</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1982</link>
		<dc:creator>chuck7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2006/11/15/lions-condemn-jackals/#comment-1982</guid>
		<description>Good infro, there is always someone desperate enough to scam the public and as housing gets tighter it brings out even more scams.
Like i preach, lets hope all this shakes out and a housing depression doesn&#039;t happen, the implications are enormous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good infro, there is always someone desperate enough to scam the public and as housing gets tighter it brings out even more scams.<br />
Like i preach, lets hope all this shakes out and a housing depression doesn&#8217;t happen, the implications are enormous.</p>
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