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	<title>Comments on: Between S&amp;P and Moody&#8217;s, Today Looks Like Downgrade-O-Rama</title>
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		<title>By: AustrianEconomist</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/comment-page-1/#comment-9022</link>
		<dc:creator>AustrianEconomist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/#comment-9022</guid>
		<description>The MSM are wrong.

We all &quot;invest&quot; a lot of cash in (e.g.) pension plans, who have to put it work in order to fund future liabilities. In order to do so they need the highest return they can get without taking to much risk (jargon: &quot;chasing yield&quot;). 

Because too much risk would be extremely irresponsible for a pension fund, most pensions funds are allowed to ONLY invest in NON-subprime securities.

The problem with CDOs (basically a security consisting of slices of different bags of mortgages) is that they are designed NOT to be traded, but to be HELD TO MATURITY, earning a nice yield (i.e. return) in the meantime. This is because they are extremely illiquid (i.e. difficult to sell). As every product is different and very opaque it is almost impossible to be sure you can realise the stated value on your books. 

As long as you don&#039;t have to sell, there&#039;s no problem as you can continue &quot;guesstimating&quot; the true value (i.e. the value you should keep on your books) by &quot;marking-to-model&quot; instead of &quot;marking-to-market&quot;. 

1. Once you are FORCED to liquidate a CDO position, because of investors bailing out of a highly-leveraged fund or margin calls from third parties, the trouble starts. You don&#039;t want to sell at a much lower (true) market price because that would imply your &quot;model&quot; has been completely wrong all the time. This would mean revising ALL CDO&#039;s values down, again leading to more margin calls and investors bailing out. 

2. And more specifically for pension funds: Once S&amp;P, Moody&#039;s, etc. decide to downgrade certain CDO&#039;s to below-investment grade status you want to liquidate these holdings BEFORE everybody else does. This, again, will lead to more cases of (1.) as well as serious ACTUAL losses for those pension funds.

Basically, you don&#039;t want to be the last one out of the very small door. That is what is happening lately, and especially the last few days as the rating companies start &quot;re-evaluating&quot; (i.e. admitting their models were wrong before) &quot;certain CDOs&quot;.

From here on, it can only get worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The MSM are wrong.</p>
<p>We all &#8220;invest&#8221; a lot of cash in (e.g.) pension plans, who have to put it work in order to fund future liabilities. In order to do so they need the highest return they can get without taking to much risk (jargon: &#8220;chasing yield&#8221;). </p>
<p>Because too much risk would be extremely irresponsible for a pension fund, most pensions funds are allowed to ONLY invest in NON-subprime securities.</p>
<p>The problem with CDOs (basically a security consisting of slices of different bags of mortgages) is that they are designed NOT to be traded, but to be HELD TO MATURITY, earning a nice yield (i.e. return) in the meantime. This is because they are extremely illiquid (i.e. difficult to sell). As every product is different and very opaque it is almost impossible to be sure you can realise the stated value on your books. </p>
<p>As long as you don&#8217;t have to sell, there&#8217;s no problem as you can continue &#8220;guesstimating&#8221; the true value (i.e. the value you should keep on your books) by &#8220;marking-to-model&#8221; instead of &#8220;marking-to-market&#8221;. </p>
<p>1. Once you are FORCED to liquidate a CDO position, because of investors bailing out of a highly-leveraged fund or margin calls from third parties, the trouble starts. You don&#8217;t want to sell at a much lower (true) market price because that would imply your &#8220;model&#8221; has been completely wrong all the time. This would mean revising ALL CDO&#8217;s values down, again leading to more margin calls and investors bailing out. </p>
<p>2. And more specifically for pension funds: Once S&amp;P, Moody&#8217;s, etc. decide to downgrade certain CDO&#8217;s to below-investment grade status you want to liquidate these holdings BEFORE everybody else does. This, again, will lead to more cases of (1.) as well as serious ACTUAL losses for those pension funds.</p>
<p>Basically, you don&#8217;t want to be the last one out of the very small door. That is what is happening lately, and especially the last few days as the rating companies start &#8220;re-evaluating&#8221; (i.e. admitting their models were wrong before) &#8220;certain CDOs&#8221;.</p>
<p>From here on, it can only get worse.</p>
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		<title>By: housingguy</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/comment-page-1/#comment-9017</link>
		<dc:creator>housingguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/#comment-9017</guid>
		<description>Twist, thanks for the hat tip. You rock.

Moody&#039;s actually downgraded, S&amp;P did not (although S&amp;P was first to drop the bombshell). Which means we&#039;re not talking phantom losses here -- we&#039;re talking real dollars now.

You&#039;re correct, too, that the downgrades hit primarily the mezzanine and the equity tranches (BB and below)....but keep in mind that the loss of BB and BBB and BBB- means that AAA and AA aren&#039;t exactly looking like the bullet-proof investments they once appeared to be, which is likely what is driving the downward price pressure in those particular securities.

And let&#039;s face it -- we haven&#039;t really yet seen the mark-to-market effect yet.

Can I nominate &#039;contagion&#039; as the housing word of the year?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Twist, thanks for the hat tip. You rock.</p>
<p>Moody&#8217;s actually downgraded, S&amp;P did not (although S&amp;P was first to drop the bombshell). Which means we&#8217;re not talking phantom losses here &#8212; we&#8217;re talking real dollars now.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re correct, too, that the downgrades hit primarily the mezzanine and the equity tranches (BB and below)&#8230;.but keep in mind that the loss of BB and BBB and BBB- means that AAA and AA aren&#8217;t exactly looking like the bullet-proof investments they once appeared to be, which is likely what is driving the downward price pressure in those particular securities.</p>
<p>And let&#8217;s face it &#8212; we haven&#8217;t really yet seen the mark-to-market effect yet.</p>
<p>Can I nominate &#8216;contagion&#8217; as the housing word of the year?</p>
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		<title>By: twist</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/comment-page-1/#comment-9016</link>
		<dc:creator>twist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 04:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/#comment-9016</guid>
		<description>RogerSmith-

I&#039;m assuming that S&amp;P and Moodys downgraded today based on the poor performance of these particular securities, [which was what they indicated] so the AAA and AA degradation shouldn&#039;t have been factors.

I did however, think it was an indication of just how far these downgrades are likely to spread.  &quot;Containment&quot; isn&#039;t happening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RogerSmith-</p>
<p>I&#8217;m assuming that S&#038;P and Moodys downgraded today based on the poor performance of these particular securities, [which was what they indicated] so the AAA and AA degradation shouldn&#8217;t have been factors.</p>
<p>I did however, think it was an indication of just how far these downgrades are likely to spread.  &#8220;Containment&#8221; isn&#8217;t happening.</p>
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		<title>By: John M.</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/comment-page-1/#comment-9014</link>
		<dc:creator>John M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:46:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/#comment-9014</guid>
		<description>Richcinaz -

The M&amp;A bubble that&#039;s been driving the DOW, etc. is fueled by the CMBS and junk bond people.  It&#039;s the bubble blogosphere&#039;s consensus, for what it&#039;s worth, is that those markets only have a couple of weeks to live and a lot of announced deals just won&#039;t find investors over the next few months.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richcinaz -</p>
<p>The M&#038;A bubble that&#8217;s been driving the DOW, etc. is fueled by the CMBS and junk bond people.  It&#8217;s the bubble blogosphere&#8217;s consensus, for what it&#8217;s worth, is that those markets only have a couple of weeks to live and a lot of announced deals just won&#8217;t find investors over the next few months.</p>
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		<title>By: Richcinaz</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/comment-page-1/#comment-9012</link>
		<dc:creator>Richcinaz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/#comment-9012</guid>
		<description>Wow and to think this is only the beginning. With at least two more years of toxic sub-prime loans due to reset it&#039;s hard to imagine how bad it&#039;s going to get. Let&#039;s throw in heloc&#039;s with arm&#039;s that are going to reset also. One thing for sure the day&#039;s of easy credit are gone and for that I am grateful. The housing market is already toast will the stock market be next?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow and to think this is only the beginning. With at least two more years of toxic sub-prime loans due to reset it&#8217;s hard to imagine how bad it&#8217;s going to get. Let&#8217;s throw in heloc&#8217;s with arm&#8217;s that are going to reset also. One thing for sure the day&#8217;s of easy credit are gone and for that I am grateful. The housing market is already toast will the stock market be next?</p>
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		<title>By: NVmike</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/comment-page-1/#comment-9011</link>
		<dc:creator>NVmike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/#comment-9011</guid>
		<description>I guess now we&#039;ll see how &quot;contained&quot; the whole subprime mess is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess now we&#8217;ll see how &#8220;contained&#8221; the whole subprime mess is.</p>
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		<title>By: rogersmith8080</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/comment-page-1/#comment-9010</link>
		<dc:creator>rogersmith8080</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 23:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/2007/07/10/downgrade-o-rama/#comment-9010</guid>
		<description>The market took a pounding today and this AA and AAA degrading was not a primary factor sited by the MSM they gave Sears and Home Depot most of the credit.  S&amp;P downgrade was like reason #3 for the drop.  Now we have Moody&#039;s down grade, I assume S&amp;P rates 1/3 of the market bonds that Moody must rate another 1/3 of the bonds.  I wonder if there is a final 1/3 market bond rater if they are going to mark these bonds down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The market took a pounding today and this AA and AAA degrading was not a primary factor sited by the MSM they gave Sears and Home Depot most of the credit.  S&amp;P downgrade was like reason #3 for the drop.  Now we have Moody&#8217;s down grade, I assume S&amp;P rates 1/3 of the market bonds that Moody must rate another 1/3 of the bonds.  I wonder if there is a final 1/3 market bond rater if they are going to mark these bonds down.</p>
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