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	<title>Comments on: The Cost Of Not Walking Away From An Underwater Mortgage</title>
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	<link>http://housingdoom.com/2009/11/05/the-cost-of-not-walking-away-from-an-underwater-mortgage/</link>
	<description>"He who defends everything defends nothing." - Frederick the Great</description>
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		<title>By: Thou shalt make thy mortgage payment, Ltd. &#124; Housing Doom</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2009/11/05/the-cost-of-not-walking-away-from-an-underwater-mortgage/comment-page-1/#comment-21945</link>
		<dc:creator>Thou shalt make thy mortgage payment, Ltd. &#124; Housing Doom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 00:52:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/?p=5180#comment-21945</guid>
		<description>[...] that, indeed, that last bit echos the famous U of A paper cited in twist&#039;s Guy Fawkes Day post &quot;The Cost Of Not Walking Away From An Underwater Mortgage.&quot; [twist is quoting from U Arizona Professor Brent T. White&#039;s famous paper] &quot;&#8230; In the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that, indeed, that last bit echos the famous U of A paper cited in twist&#39;s Guy Fawkes Day post &quot;The Cost Of Not Walking Away From An Underwater Mortgage.&quot; [twist is quoting from U Arizona Professor Brent T. White&#39;s famous paper] &quot;&#8230; In the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: getting educated</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2009/11/05/the-cost-of-not-walking-away-from-an-underwater-mortgage/comment-page-1/#comment-21132</link>
		<dc:creator>getting educated</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/?p=5180#comment-21132</guid>
		<description>&quot;I believe people have an obligation to pay their financial agreements to the best of their ability.&quot;

By that statement, I assume you mean &quot;honor their contracts&quot;?  If so, what contracts or &quot;agreements&quot; are you referring to?  The ones with the banks, yes?  So, READ the contract!  The contract says that you get to live in the house as long as you pay the bank some dollars.  If you stop paying the bank dollars, the bank gets the house.  Simple.  It’s not like the bank didn’t agree to that, or agree to the value of the house at time of purchase.  The question to ask is why was the bank so irresponsible in its end of the agreement?  So, really, the banks gambled and lost if someone gives their house back to the bank by walking away.  

But before we even get to the walk-away stage, check to see who really holds the current mortgage.  There’s a really good chance that the mortgage was already cut up and sold, meaning that the bank already got “paid” the value of the mortgage and you have no contract with the new holder of the mortgage.  Same with credit card debt.  Once sold, you have no contract with the collections agency hounding you.  Sure they can sue you, but they wouldn’t win the suit.  It rarely happens though because of the fear factor involved in going to court.  They usually win by default when you fail so show up in court.

Now let’s get to the really interesting part that the article makes no mention of.  The contract!  One of the five requisites to a legally binding contract is something called consideration.  It basically means that both parties must bring something to the bargain, usually money.  And, in the case of mortgage, it is about the money.  Here’s the catch.  Due to fractional reserve lending, the bank is not actually lending any money to the potential homebuyer!  The bank only has a fraction of the reserves it claims to have and therefore is really lending NOTHING!  It’s all accounting columns and electronic digits that are involved in the mortgage.  Once signed, the mortgage actually gives the bank permission to print more money.  Your signature is what creates the money, so the bank has no consideration in the contract which renders the contract null and void!  But believe me, no judge would rule in your favor.  It’s just important to know from a moral standpoint.  The entire banking system IS immoral!  

The same applies to credit card debt.  Of course you can walk away from that stuff.  It’s unsubstantiated debt, not like a mortgage with a house involved.  You see, you are not walking away from YOUR debt.  You’re walking away from the banks’ debt.  It’s YOUR credit and THE BANKS debt.  The bank is merely lending you YOUR credit!  It’s your credit, so you can do what ever you want with it; cash it out for dollars if you want.  Once you sign a credit card receipt, you have given the bank permission to create that amount of money for you.  The bank then incurs a debt and expects you to pay their debt!  Again, no consideration and even no full disclosure (also required in a legally binding contract).  You are not contractually obligated to pay the banks debit!  (Besides, they’ve already sold that debt ten times over the amount.  So don’t worry about the bank not making any money!)  They have lost nothing in the exchange because they brought nothing to the table to begin with (except YOUR credit).  Without your signature, the banks can create no money.  But you’ve been duped into thinking that YOU own THEM!  If you actually owed the bank anything, they would be obligated to send you a bill or invoice for what you owe.  You’ve never received a bill or invoice (although you probably erroneously call what they send you a bill).  They send you a STATEMENT!  You’re not contractually obligated to pay a statement!  Ask your credit card company for a bill or invoice showing services rendered or monies lost and you’ll be digging up a hornets nest with them, because they can’t produce it. 

So, for all the moral arguments out there, you are not walking away from your obligations or your debts.  They are the banks debts!  They incurred them knowingly and legally and they have loved the game up until now.  Stop paying their debts!  Let them grow up and learn to pay their own debts!  That will collapse them and we could then possibly replace them with something more ethical and morally sound.  

I know it&#039;s a long post, so, sorry about that.  Feedback is appreciated.  Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I believe people have an obligation to pay their financial agreements to the best of their ability.&#8221;</p>
<p>By that statement, I assume you mean &#8220;honor their contracts&#8221;?  If so, what contracts or &#8220;agreements&#8221; are you referring to?  The ones with the banks, yes?  So, READ the contract!  The contract says that you get to live in the house as long as you pay the bank some dollars.  If you stop paying the bank dollars, the bank gets the house.  Simple.  It’s not like the bank didn’t agree to that, or agree to the value of the house at time of purchase.  The question to ask is why was the bank so irresponsible in its end of the agreement?  So, really, the banks gambled and lost if someone gives their house back to the bank by walking away.  </p>
<p>But before we even get to the walk-away stage, check to see who really holds the current mortgage.  There’s a really good chance that the mortgage was already cut up and sold, meaning that the bank already got “paid” the value of the mortgage and you have no contract with the new holder of the mortgage.  Same with credit card debt.  Once sold, you have no contract with the collections agency hounding you.  Sure they can sue you, but they wouldn’t win the suit.  It rarely happens though because of the fear factor involved in going to court.  They usually win by default when you fail so show up in court.</p>
<p>Now let’s get to the really interesting part that the article makes no mention of.  The contract!  One of the five requisites to a legally binding contract is something called consideration.  It basically means that both parties must bring something to the bargain, usually money.  And, in the case of mortgage, it is about the money.  Here’s the catch.  Due to fractional reserve lending, the bank is not actually lending any money to the potential homebuyer!  The bank only has a fraction of the reserves it claims to have and therefore is really lending NOTHING!  It’s all accounting columns and electronic digits that are involved in the mortgage.  Once signed, the mortgage actually gives the bank permission to print more money.  Your signature is what creates the money, so the bank has no consideration in the contract which renders the contract null and void!  But believe me, no judge would rule in your favor.  It’s just important to know from a moral standpoint.  The entire banking system IS immoral!  </p>
<p>The same applies to credit card debt.  Of course you can walk away from that stuff.  It’s unsubstantiated debt, not like a mortgage with a house involved.  You see, you are not walking away from YOUR debt.  You’re walking away from the banks’ debt.  It’s YOUR credit and THE BANKS debt.  The bank is merely lending you YOUR credit!  It’s your credit, so you can do what ever you want with it; cash it out for dollars if you want.  Once you sign a credit card receipt, you have given the bank permission to create that amount of money for you.  The bank then incurs a debt and expects you to pay their debt!  Again, no consideration and even no full disclosure (also required in a legally binding contract).  You are not contractually obligated to pay the banks debit!  (Besides, they’ve already sold that debt ten times over the amount.  So don’t worry about the bank not making any money!)  They have lost nothing in the exchange because they brought nothing to the table to begin with (except YOUR credit).  Without your signature, the banks can create no money.  But you’ve been duped into thinking that YOU own THEM!  If you actually owed the bank anything, they would be obligated to send you a bill or invoice for what you owe.  You’ve never received a bill or invoice (although you probably erroneously call what they send you a bill).  They send you a STATEMENT!  You’re not contractually obligated to pay a statement!  Ask your credit card company for a bill or invoice showing services rendered or monies lost and you’ll be digging up a hornets nest with them, because they can’t produce it. </p>
<p>So, for all the moral arguments out there, you are not walking away from your obligations or your debts.  They are the banks debts!  They incurred them knowingly and legally and they have loved the game up until now.  Stop paying their debts!  Let them grow up and learn to pay their own debts!  That will collapse them and we could then possibly replace them with something more ethical and morally sound.  </p>
<p>I know it&#8217;s a long post, so, sorry about that.  Feedback is appreciated.  Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: AZSALUKI</title>
		<link>http://housingdoom.com/2009/11/05/the-cost-of-not-walking-away-from-an-underwater-mortgage/comment-page-1/#comment-21129</link>
		<dc:creator>AZSALUKI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://housingdoom.com/?p=5180#comment-21129</guid>
		<description>i lean more to a current mortgage payment vs rent payment decision. obviously, his example is about as bad of a situation as anyone can be in (value down 70%). however (as white pointed out in his own situation), while i may be underwater, my mortgage payment is $965. add taxes and ins and i&#039;m at about $1100/month. for a three bed, 2 1/2 bath, 2 car garage, HOA ($40/mo) neighborhhod with a pool (advantages of having pool w/o the disadvanteges!!!) i feel it&#039;s VERY comparable to if i walked and went and rented. obviously i&#039;m not $400K upside down. so again, i beleive it depends on each individual situation. i don&#039;t judge those who walk away. i&#039;ve seen clients put in awful situations due to no fault of their own (lost job, etc) that had no choice. HOWEVER, i&#039;ve also witnessed plenty of others walk just because their 500K home is now valued at 400K even though they may make 200K+. those situations are a bit discouraging. and yes igor....i do get &quot;annoyed&quot; by some of the walkers i see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i lean more to a current mortgage payment vs rent payment decision. obviously, his example is about as bad of a situation as anyone can be in (value down 70%). however (as white pointed out in his own situation), while i may be underwater, my mortgage payment is $965. add taxes and ins and i&#8217;m at about $1100/month. for a three bed, 2 1/2 bath, 2 car garage, HOA ($40/mo) neighborhhod with a pool (advantages of having pool w/o the disadvanteges!!!) i feel it&#8217;s VERY comparable to if i walked and went and rented. obviously i&#8217;m not $400K upside down. so again, i beleive it depends on each individual situation. i don&#8217;t judge those who walk away. i&#8217;ve seen clients put in awful situations due to no fault of their own (lost job, etc) that had no choice. HOWEVER, i&#8217;ve also witnessed plenty of others walk just because their 500K home is now valued at 400K even though they may make 200K+. those situations are a bit discouraging. and yes igor&#8230;.i do get &#8220;annoyed&#8221; by some of the walkers i see.</p>
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